Comment from: Roger Barr [Visitor]
Roger Barr


02/29/12 @ 09:56
Comment from: Daddy [Visitor]

No, not excellent. I have tried to explain to you, repeatedly, that a discussion is just that.

Have you ever tried to debate something in a group of people, where everyone has their say? I don’t mean FB, or bloggers, or what not. I mean real people, in real space. This is how I feel in public. I have, all my life, put on a face of being happy in public. I am not. I am, by nature, a private person. When you are ready to discuss these things, privately, I will try to handle it. By the way, I did read the book Reflections of a Former Missionary. I was deeply moved by it. As it happened, my internet access, at that time, was extremely limited, because my computer was in Texas. It has now been about 18 months since I read it, but I do recall you told me that it expressed the basic path you walked. I can see such things happening. The missionary did something I see people do every day, and I infer that you did much the same. He often went to people to help him with his ‘faith’, who promptly taught him to stick with it, and don’t worry. This may not have happened every time, but I was impressed that that was his path when I read it. He did, on occassion, search his heart to find out if he truly believed, and eventually, decided he didn’t. He chose his path. We all choose our paths. I disagree that we are where we are because we want to be, but we did choose the path, that somehow or other , got us there. It intersected someones path, and caused us to veer from the path we had chosen.

When you tell me you did not choose what you believe, I recognize that you chose a path that eventually led you there. That is basically what I got from the book you recommended. Did I get it wrong? If so, please help me get it right. I truly want to understand.

I did not mean to imply that you specifically chose to be public to gain support. It just makes many people comfortable. It makes me uncomfortable, because I cannot take time, neither do I have energy, to discuss all points to the pleasure of all. And you find fault with nearly every thing I write, not realizing that you are , quite often, reading the words, but not the intent of the words that I have written. Consider love in every word I write, and you may come closer to understanding me. What I see from you is great unkindness, and a lot of misunderstanding of my intentions, including the article that began this whole discussion.

02/29/12 @ 14:46
Comment from: Mary [Visitor]

Is it faith, or is it just wishful thinking?

02/29/12 @ 19:51
Comment from: diana [Member]

Perhaps, in your view, Daddy, it wasn’t excellent.

In mine? I was right on the money, and you just proved it.

You remember that part where I was explaining why it’s important to hold theists accountable and why? Observe:

In my explanation about why I take these conversations public, I listed some things theists routinely do in conversation/debate. Here was one of them, if you’ll remember:

(4) ignoring questions and corrections to misconceptions, sometimes in the direct response to the post where those corrections had been made

Toward the end of my post, I made the following comments:

For example, how many times have I explained that I cannot choose to believe there’s a god then POOF believe, any more than I can choose to believe gravity is reversed and, as a result, float up into the ether? Yet each time the subject comes up, he asserts that I “choose” to not believe in gods, etc.*

* For those who are interested in why we cannot choose beliefs, this is one of the best-written yet accessible pieces I’ve yet found on it.

And what did you do in your immediate response to that post where you had again been corrected?

You said that the writer of the book I’d recommended “did, on occassion, search his heart to find out if he truly believed, and eventually, decided he didn’t. He chose his path.”

As though I never said anything.

Did you read the link I provided regarding the notion of choosing a belief? If you’re truly interested in understanding where I’m coming from, give it even half the attention I give every thing you ask me to read. Respond to the problems you see with the writer’s arguments. Make your own arguments; support your assertions.

Stop saying you’re trying to understand and show me your work. For better or for worse, I always show you mine, and I expect the same level of attention and effort from you.


02/29/12 @ 23:47
Comment from: diana [Member]

Good question, Mary. Is there a difference?


03/01/12 @ 14:17
Comment from: Daddy [Visitor]

Dear One, in response to your comment about ‘he chose his path’. I infer from this statement (your comment) that we do not choose our paths. This is in direct opposition to your statements regarding your ‘deconversion’, I think was the word he used. It may have been another writer. If we do not choose our own path, —–who does it for us?

I am not running from a discussion. But I will no longer be upset by your constant abrasive attitude. You almost consistently seem to hear, to say the least, a very poor understanding of what I was trying to say. Then I am berated, in public, for what I did not mean, did not intend to say, and do not believe.

I have yet to hear a word of apology from you for any of the unkind, and I know, untruthful things you believe I have said, believing I said what you believe,as though I said what you believe, intentionally. I cannot, and will not, further subject myself to this abuse. I have submitted so far to your misunderstandings, and given an honest try to explain, but you do not want to believe I meant what I try to tell you I meant.

When you decide to continue this on my site, or by email, I will look forward to a continued discussion, with the express request that neither of us will intentionally use defamatory remarks, or highly charged emotional words, to try to make a point. That is the way that real scholars, as well as real adults approach a discussion. If you believe the word ‘Bible’ is emotionally charged, then I will try to find another word to use. When I talk about my faith, it comes from there. You have explained where your faith comes from.

By the way, you neglected to tell me what changes I could make to the original article that would make it palatable to you. I will not completely remove it, since it is a general statement of some thoughts I have had for years, none of which, to my recollection, having to do with you.

I will not return to your sight, unless you can humble yourself to apologize to me.

My love for you is greater than you can realize, and I hope you understand this. I hope your love for your Mother and me are as strong as it ever was. Me

03/02/12 @ 09:16
Comment from: diana [Member]

I could apologize but I would not mean it. It would be a lie. I have gone out of my way to avoid lying to you, even when it means you will be hurt. I don’t do it to hurt you, though; I do it because I respect you and myself enough to not lie.

The irony here is that I insist upon being truthful about my belief that you’re lying, and you are deeply offended by this. Pretty awful–and frustrating!–being accused of deluding yourself and lying, huh?

Now consider this: I am gay. I did not choose it. I chose to not be, but as it turns out, I couldn’t change myself through choice. I’m just not straight, and that’s all there is to it.

But you don’t believe me. Nope. In your mind, I chose this, and anything I say which contradicts your perfect little belief of How The World Is is a delusion or lie. You have accused me of this for years.

Now I’m in the position where I honestly do not believe your “explanation” of the source of your strange post. It really matters to you that I believe you, and the point of contention here is petty: I simply don’t believe I had nothing to do with the germination of the post years ago or its coincidentally being published now (which is why an apology is not forthcoming–an apology would be a lie). It is, yes, VERY petty. But look how upset you are that I do not believe you.

Now imagine this: be gay–not bisexual, where a choice is possible, but GAY, where choice is not–and SPEND YOUR LIFE being told that you are straight, you do have a choice, etc. Any contradictory information is rejected as lies or delusions.

This is not a petty discussion at all: this is my LIFE.

Where’s my apology?


03/02/12 @ 23:04
Comment from: diana [Member]

“If we do not choose our own path, —–who does it for us?”

Where does “environment” and “chance” enter the equation?


07/30/12 @ 13:57

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