Comment from: Jam [Visitor]
Jam

There are a lot of things in life that materialist science cannot explain, because it is limited only to certain modes and subjects of inquiry. Things like consciousness, morality, philosophy, and the origin of matter–even the concept of logic itself–are all outside of the scientific realm. I think it is a fallacy to divide the world into the scientific (usually meaning empiricism) and the “supernatural” (i.e. religious or superstitious). There is a lot more to life than fits into either of these categories.

And they are not directly opposed to each other, but they do not overlap too much either.

Are you dismissing all knowledge that cannot be known empirically? What is the scope of the “science” you speak of? Because there are certainly basic assumptions about the way the universe works which cannot be proven empirically–circular thoughts, postulates that cannot be proved like theorems; for example, can you explain the necessity of logic/reason without using logic/reason? …probably not.

I don’t think it’s inherently superstitious to believe in more than just empiricism. Sure, you can dismiss certain religious beliefs as superstition, but dividing things in the rigidly binary way you do really limits the scope of human knowledge and also limits the scope of any discussion you can ever hope to have with someone about life, the universe, everything…

Perhaps what your dad meant was that real scientists realize the limits of science and do not try to compartmentalize their lives and philosophies based on empirical discoveries. That’s what I mean to say, anyhow.

08/22/10 @ 20:13
Comment from: diana [Member]

Hi, Jamie! :)

There are a lot of things in life that materialist science cannot explain, because it is limited only to certain modes and subjects of inquiry. Things like consciousness, morality, philosophy, and the origin of matter–even the concept of logic itself–are all outside of the scientific realm.

Yes. If you go back a couple of centuries, you’ll find that there were far more things that materialist science could not explain. That did not mean they were unexplainable or supernatural. It just mean science did not yet have an explanation.

I think it is a fallacy to divide the world into the scientific (usually meaning empiricism) and the “supernatural” (i.e. religious or superstitious). There is a lot more to life than fits into either of these categories.

How so?

And they are not directly opposed to each other, but they do not overlap too much either.

Go on….

Are you dismissing all knowledge that cannot be known empirically? What is the scope of the “science” you speak of? Because there are certainly basic assumptions about the way the universe works which cannot be proven empirically–circular thoughts, postulates that cannot be proved like theorems; for example, can you explain the necessity of logic/reason without using logic/reason? …probably not.

Not at all. I think knowledge which can be known via theory (scientific theory) can still be reasonable.

And if you think logic/reason isn’t necessary, let’s see you make an argument for it. :)

I don’t think it’s inherently superstitious to believe in more than just empiricism. Sure, you can dismiss certain religious beliefs as superstition, but dividing things in the rigidly binary way you do really limits the scope of human knowledge and also limits the scope of any discussion you can ever hope to have with someone about life, the universe, everything…

OK. How does what you believe differ from superstition (other than they way I’ve already noted)? And how do you dismiss other beliefs as ridiculous while maintaining your own (assuming, of course, that you seek to maintain your intellectual integrity)?

Perhaps what your dad meant was that real scientists realize the limits of science and do not try to compartmentalize their lives and philosophies based on empirical discoveries. That’s what I mean to say, anyhow.

Perhaps, but there is a difference–a huge one–between what science can reasonably support and what people believe.

d

08/22/10 @ 22:22
Comment from: diana [Member]

More thoughts, since I usually miss something on the first go-round. :)

On the nature of axioms: you seem interested in the circular nature of logic, so let’s discuss that.

We do accept axioms to be true, but we do so because they are NECESSARY, SELF-EVIDENT, and THEY WORK.

axiom: A self-evident and necessary truth; a proposition which it is necessary to take for granted; a proposition whose truth is so evident that no reasoning or demonstration can make it plainer

Instead of the logic you and I take for granted, work from the assumption that A = ~A and see where that gets you….

The same cannot be said for the supernatural. It is certainly NOT necessary to assume its existence. Quite the contrary. We have no basis upon which to argue for its existence, so the scientific approach, which functions from the principle of parsimony, requires that it be proven–not disproven.

Oh, and morality certainly can be explained without appeal to the supernatural. Don’t be silly.

d

08/23/10 @ 11:15
Comment from: diana's Marine [Visitor]
diana's Marine

Nothing is supernatural. The word is described well as a semantic leftover. Supernatural occurrences do not occur in a natural universe.

Now that mankind knows how things happen, why the weather changes, why Saturday Night Live isn’t funny anymore…..there’s no need to huddle around like cavemen in wonder watching Grog who figured out how to make fire and assume he’s a magic man.

08/24/10 @ 13:21


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