Comment from: Aunt Bann [Visitor]
Aunt Bann

Interesting, Diana. You make a good case. I’m sure that I am like many people, just taking everything for granted, and that the Bible is true. Keep writing what you believe (or don’t believe, as the case may be). I will be reading and thinking.

08/15/10 @ 22:35
Comment from: diana [Member]

Thanks, Aunt Bann.

I will occasionally trip back into non-contentious topics, but I feel that this book deserves a response. I don’t think it makes good arguments, but it (1) is a very popular Christian apologetic work, and (2) Daddy asked me to read it.

I admire the skill with which Strobel has wrought this work. It’s admirable. He is a skilled writer. He knows how to get the attention and interest of his audience, he knows who his audience is, and he knows exactly what to tell them.

Also, I appreciate that he’s introducing so many of these questions to Christians. I think most Christians don’t know anything about, say, contemporary writing about Jesus, or the extrabiblical sources apologists produce to defend their faith. What I don’t like is how Strobel so obviously tips the scales in his favor. He acknowledges problems with the most commonly cited texts (and really, Josephus and Tacitus are the two biggest ones), but he only cites the problems he has an answer to (but then…he’s acting as a defense attorney, and the job of a defense attorney is not to find the truth, but to defend his client; to do that, the attorney must choose his “truths” carefully).

What we end up with, though, are millions of Christians who’ve never delved into the questions Strobel produces, but who are happy to accept his information as it APPEARS to be pretty thorough. It isn’t.

Does he mention Porphyry anywhere in the book? I doubt it, but I’m still reading.

Love you!

d

08/15/10 @ 22:57
Comment from: Mila [Visitor]
Mila

WOW. I’m probably way out of my league here, but there are a couple of things I’d humbly like to point out.

If we see history from this point of view, we are to believe none of it. None of the ancients can be really trusted. We can analyze what they say and get hints for higher or lower probabilities, but no certainties. Yet humanity has believed ancient accounts for two millenia. Maybe history is the oldest of myths! On the subject, if you haven’t read Julian Barnes’s ‘A history of the world in 10 1/2 chapters’, I recommend it. He addresses this issue in some amazingly written fiction. Even if you don’t see the point, you’ll enjoy it, I assure you!

On a different matter, I don’t really think the important part of the gospels is whether it was dark or not when Jesus died, whether he walked on water or not, whether his name was Jesus. The literary styles used to write these books were chosen thinking about an audience, and trying to fit a style that was used at the time. Even at the point where I am, neither in or out of Christianity, trying to figure out where *I* stand, I still believe that the gospels were written to send a message, and they were written in such a way because it was considered the most effective way to send that message to more people.
Of course, a handful of basic facts need to be true if the message (and Christianity) is to make any sense: Jesus, with this name or another, existed. He was sent by god and did things that were considered extraordinary. As far as I’m concerned, they might not have been miracles even: maybe he knew medicine that the Jews ignored, and found miraculous.
My point (despite being this inarticulate) is that when reading the gospels, one must look at the message behind the facts. Whether he in fact kicked the moneychangers out of the temple or not, the message behind that story is that the temple should be respected as a sacred place. If you read the bible as a history book, I agree with you: it’s disappointingly inaccurate.

I hope I was clear, even though my English is not as good, and I can’t quote any big names in my response… This has been enlightening :)

08/16/10 @ 15:21
Comment from: diana [Member]

Wow. I typed an entire response to your post yesterday, Mila. I don’t know what happened to it. Dang it. :(

Will begin again…

If we see history from this point of view, we are to believe none of it. None of the ancients can be really trusted. We can analyze what they say and get hints for higher or lower probabilities, but no certainties.

Absolutely! I went into this in more depth on the thread I linked to previously (in particular, posts 10 and 12).

I have a disclaimer here: I do have a master’s degree in history, but it is not as specialized as credentialed historians. So…I have some training in history, but it isn’t as thorough as I’d like, so I supplement my training with ongoing readings in the subject for pleasure. This is just to say that I have some basis for my assertions, but I am by no means an expert.

Yet humanity has believed ancient accounts for two millenia.

Well, yes and no. We believe what we are told until new information comes to light and we have reason to rethink our assumptions and conclusions. Take Jericho, for example.

Maybe history is the oldest of myths!

Some of it certainly is. Even in American History, which isn’t that old as far as history goes, we have a plethora of myths that historians are still trying to squelch. Myths are admittedly fun stories; they appeal to the fantastic, and usually teach us something about ourselves and encourage us to be better people. It is no surprise that they are so pernicious. :)

On the subject, if you haven’t read Julian Barnes’s ‘A history of the world in 10 1/2 chapters’, I recommend it. He addresses this issue in some amazingly written fiction. Even if you don’t see the point, you’ll enjoy it, I assure you!

I have heard of this book, and would LOVE to read it! Thanks for the reminder.

On a different matter, I don’t really think the important part of the gospels is whether it was dark or not when Jesus died, whether he walked on water or not, whether his name was Jesus.

Fair enough. However, many American Christians find these details VERY important, as they are literalists and inerrantists. (If they didn’t consider them important, there would be no need for Strobel to argue for their truth.)

I find myself frequently explaining this to my non-American friends. :) The religious climate here is very different from what you know.

The literary styles used to write these books were chosen thinking about an audience, and trying to fit a style that was used at the time. Even at the point where I am, neither in or out of Christianity, trying to figure out where *I* stand, I still believe that the gospels were written to send a message, and they were written in such a way because it was considered the most effective way to send that message to more people.

I agree completely. On all points. This is part of my ongoing fascination with the bible, I think.

Of course, a handful of basic facts need to be true if the message (and Christianity) is to make any sense…

Why? The messages of other myths is not altered because we understand them to be myths, are they?

And no worries…you’re quite articulate. Had you not mentioned that English is not your first language, I wouldn’t know. :)

d

08/17/10 @ 11:12
Comment from: Mila [Visitor]
Mila

Of course, a handful of basic facts need to be true if the message (and Christianity) is to make any sense…

Why? The messages of other myths is not altered because we understand them to be myths, are they?

What I meant here is that even christians who find, like me, that the bible should not be read as a history book, still believe that there are some fundamental facts that are not mere “details", and that are, in fact, historical. One such fact would be the existence of Jesus and his filial relationship with god.

08/17/10 @ 21:45
Comment from: diana [Member]

Right. I’m asking why you think that has to be literally true, as in historically true in this dimension (if that helps). I know Christians tend to believe that and interpret Paul’s words to mean that, but I don’t see why it needs to be true for the sake of Christianity.

One other problem I have with it is how you know which bits are true and which are not if you slice so much of it out.

Thanks!

d

08/18/10 @ 12:19
Comment from: Mila [Visitor]
Mila

I think that’s where you reach the ‘faith’ terrain. The existence of god (and his son) itself cannot be factually proved 100%. But they have to believe it, or they would contradict themselves. Imagine someone who calls him/herself a christian, saying something like ‘I don’t think what it says in the bible about Jesus existing is true at all’. This person would make no sense, at all.

About where to draw the line… I took a course on that years ago, of which, of course, I remember nothing (I should still have my notes though…). But there are experts on the bible who study the many literary genres used in it through the centuries, and the times and places in which they were used, who can probably answer that with more precision, but again, with no certainty. It all leaves us where you started: evidence is just not enough.

08/18/10 @ 17:22


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