my life

Diana,

“I don’t want to belong to any club that would have me as a member.” (Attributed to Groucho Marx.) I had a manager once who encouraged me to take the test and join Mensa. He was convinced I’d qualify, as both he and his wife had. I didn’t have the money to spend on testing and dues, however, so I didn’t mess with it.

I supposed one would join Mensa for the same reason one would join any social organization: to belong to something. We all have our way of distinguishing between “us” and “them.” Whether it’s a political party, an alumni organization, or a street gang, we all want to feel that we belong with others of our own kind. I think one chooses such a group based on what one considers important: ideology, school, turf, etc. My guess is that Mensans believe intelligence is the most important separator. Unfortunately it’s also REALLY hard to gauge objectively, as you’ve pointed out.

Looking back, I think that’s why I never tried to join Mensa. For me there’s such a thing as “smart enough.” There are other human characteristics that I value more highly.

I read somewhere that some police departments give IQ tests to applicants and will actually reject someone who scores too high. They’ve seen a trend where overly-intelligent officers grow bored and restless (considering the nature of patrol work - long periods of boredom separated by moments of terror) and either do a poor job or quit. The best officers are of somewhat higher than average intelligence (so they can understand the law they enforce) but not easily bored.

The few people I’ve known who were in Mensa were all nice people. One did admit that Mensa seemed to have more than the national average of egotists. But then, so do professional sports. And engineering societies. And political parties. And… you get the idea.

One thing just occurred to me: joining Mensa doesn’t mean you have to give up your other interests and associations. People aren’t one-dimensional. (Well, most of us aren’t.) And Mensa social events would be a great place to shmooze - their members tend to be more highly placed in business and academe than grunts like me.

Dave

Dave: “For me there’s such a thing as ’smart enough.’ There are other human characteristics that I value more highly.”

Well-spoken.

Trust you to find the silver lining, though. Me, I’ll stick with the grunts. They’re more fun.

Part of my problem with Mensa is that I don’t understand clubs, period. I’ve tried being in clubs a few times, and they just seem to create dues and obligations and restraints on my schedule for…what? I never got anything out of them and we never did anything (travel clubs and chess clubs and such are notable exceptions). The Mensa thing strikes me as about as useful as the national honor society college club (the name escapes me): you don’t really do anything except pay your dues for the right to say you’re a member.

Another thing I was attempting to express (but I see I tangented wildly and didn’t return) was that I’m really not that smart. For the love of Pete, I didn’t even know what the capital of Alabama was–and this was after I’d lived here for a year already. This fact alone, I think, should certainly disqualify me for Mensa membership, regardless of how well I test. You reckon? :)

d

Diana,

“Find the silver lining"? Nah. I’ve just spent most of my life straddling the border between ignorant hillbillies and the educated elite. Geniuses and doofuses exist in both camps. The difference between the camps isn’t intelligence, it’s education. While some skills that we associate with intelligence can be taught (e.g. critical thinking, pattern recognition), most of what’s taught in schools today are just facts. What we do with the facts we have is what I think of as intelligence.

When I was in high school there was much ado about how IQ tests discriminated against minorities. To illustrate the fact, my English teacher gave us two short IQ tests: one was a subset of a standard test of the day, the other was written specially for residents of Appalachia. Most students actually scored higher on the standard test (I was the only one in the class that knew you had to remove a groundhog’s scent glands before cooking it), but nobody scored the same on both tests. Tests in those days assumed much about the subject’s knowledge and experience, which dont’t correlate to intelligence.

As for your not being smart - with all due respect, Captain, that’s nonsense. Just because you don’t know certain facts doesn’t make you unintelligent. At worst it makes you ignorant. And as I’ve said before, ignorance is curable. If you really needed to know the capital of Alabama, I’m sure you’d find the answer in seconds. The way you pick out interesting facets of life that most people never notice and make a blog entry about your observations on them says more about your intelligence than any number of facts.

I know what you mean about clubs. Some are really stuck on procedure and ritual. About the only benefit I see to those is the acquaintences you can make. (As I’m coming to find out, networking is how business gets done. And not IBM’s kind of networking.) I was president of a local ham radio club for a time, and I tried to add some variety to the meeting program but most of the members were content to just get together once a month, shoot the breeze for a while, then go through the motions. You’d think that with the common interest we’d have had more radio-related activities. I guess radio is what the guys did at home and chitchat was what they did at the club. I’m not much for chitchat. (Although you wouldn’t know it by the way I occupy your blog. Sorry about that.)

Dave

I wish I would have known that decent SAT score (I scored 800 math, 760 verbal, as I recall) would do it. They want 1250 from my epoch. While I’ve always thought of myself as a smart guy, I never thought I was Mensa material. I’m still not sure what I mean by “Mensa material,” but reflecting for a moment I think it means I don’t have the right attitude, not aptitude.

I recall a question that purported to be from a Mensa or Mensa-like test that queried what the likelihood of a person inhaling an oxygen atom that had been previously exhaled by one of the Caesers of ancient Rome. It was multiple choice with answers like 1-in-6 or 1-in-6,000,000,000…or something like that, unless my memory is all messed up and I’m combining two different questions and answers (quick search on the Internet shows that isn’t the combination I recall, which means nothing more than the search engine doesn’t remember things the way I do). I didn’t have any idea how to begin calculating it, but did realize that in my musings I was probably thinking too much into it; how would one determine the number of oxygen atoms existing then and now, and what influences would one consider to impact the movement of those atoms from Rome to Minnesota, or one of the locations to which I’ve travelled… Is that question even answerable? Maybe the question wasn’t Mensa related, but any group that requires you to answer their “standard” test questions is probably elitist, which I’m not, although I am occasionally snobbish.

I agree that tests can’t as effectively rate an inidividual’s core intelligence, but instead can test their exposure to, retention and application of information and problem solving skills. Knowing advanced math or obscure English or complicated processes well enough to achieve a high score on a test doesn’t prove that you understand that math, language, or process, a key I believe in separating “knowledge” from “intelligence.” Heck, I’ve forgotten enough of that stuff I so proudly dominated while in school that I believe that I’d have a hard time passing some of those classes, much less getting good grades and high scores. I don’t think I’m any less intelligent, just refocused onto different subjects. Certainly the capability for me to understand and solve the problem exists, even if the specific formula or relationship is missing from my instantaneous recollection.

The only reason I’d want to join would be to have a card to carry that said I was smart, in case I had to prove it in a hurry. In reviewing that justification, I’d be better off finishing my degree, and moving on to a MS and PhD. So I agree again, it’s the earned credentials, not the awarded ones–probably why I don’t take the time to go test for any industry-recognized certification (been writing software since 1988, but I don’t carry one software-related test-based certification); I’m sure I could pass.

Plus, I think whipping out the card would prove I’m a dork more than it would that I’m intelligent, and they’d probably give me a wedgie…

Jeff,

I’m gonna hijack Diana’s thread for a moment. What sort of test-based software certifications are there? I’m not familiar with any (although a guy at the professional licensing department in New York told me a few years ago that Texas was just starting to issue Professional Engineer certificates for software engineering).

Not that I’m likely to be able to pass any such tests. I have very little formal training in software development. I just make it up as I go along. (Grin)

Dave

Folks:

Speaking of Mensa:

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_1284445.html?menu=news.quirkies

Dave

Dave-

I’m not sure I understand what you mean. Most of the software-related certifications are test-based. I’d hazard “all,” but I’ve not done enough research to ensure that’s an accurate statement. Certainly “all” of the certifications I’ve reviewed, considering them as resume pad, are test-based.

For example, to become a Sun certified Java developer, at one of four levels, there’s a test you have to take. Nothing more; as in: not proof of performance. Heck, you don’t even have to actually write any software to pass the test!

Microsoft’s certifications have always been test based, although their tests are adaptive and the test GUI may make you walk through the steps as though you were actually performing the task.

Even administration, not software, certifications are test-based. Check out Red Hat’s certification. Sure, most of the site is dedicated to the training classes, but really, you don’t have to take the classes, just the test.

Much of the paper that my “peers” carry is barely worth the paper and ink…the certificates are pretty. Sure, some of them are smart, and the certifications do reflect their knowledge. Some of them purely studied for the tests, and passed, leaving their knowledge of the subject at the door of the test facility.

And, yes, I am skeptical of tests. Now, I’m all for a standard way of recognizing one’s comprehension of a subject; tests work great for this. I am against relying on the certification as a reflection of one’s skill.

I hold one Microsoft certification. A test I took as a lark. Now, I’m competent in the subject, so it didn’t surprise me when I passed the test 15 minutes after starting (the attendant asked me if there was a problem, warning me I couldn’t return to my workstation and that my test would have to stand at its current score…); whatever, give me my nerd-card, keep the wedgie.

I’ve met, interviewed, and interviewed for many varied certificate holders that got the certificate just to say they did. When the work needed to be done, or the question answered, they were not truly knowledgeable.

Yes, the counter is true, too. I have met many certificate holders who warrant certification. The bit I believe is that there are too many of the former to make the latter stand out.

Jeff